PDA

View Full Version : Stealing bits of my car in Prague


maxd
12-04-05, 10:33 PM
<rant>Anyone else had parts stolen off their car? I am at my wits end. I replace the parts they steal ( usually indicators and mirrors, only for the same thing to happen again a few weeks later. I feel like one of those cows the african nomads use to tap blood for food. Constant source of food as long as they live.

I knew nothing about gypsies before I came to prague but I am learning fast. In the street where my office resides 2 buildings straight out of a war zone. The gypsies there steal my customers baggage, cars and wallets and suspect they have a lot to do with what is coming off my car at night as I have seen one in the area gettnig some mirrors off another bmw.

If any PC person replies to me that they are misunderstood and society has made them this way I am personally going to come and steal things from you car and flat to see how you like it!

Cut their f**** hand off. <rant over>

pavelpavel
13-04-05, 12:50 AM
Haven't had any problem with this, as I don't have a BMW.

I'll let you know how the the penis reduction surgery turns out, for sure I'll be needing a BMW soon after.

carlfred
13-04-05, 04:06 AM
youre lucky neighbour had all his four brand new tyres all 30k kc worth gone o night

princeowales
13-04-05, 04:43 AM
[QUOTE=maxd] If any PC person replies to me that they are misunderstood and society has made them this way I am personally going to come and steal things from you car and flat to see how you like it!

Cut their f**** hand off. <rant over>[/QUOTE]

It's not society that has made 'them' this way, it's asses like you with your puerile stereotyping. By the way, 'them' is probably less than 5% of Prague's Roma population (since I can't assume your education contains such fineries, Roma is the proper term for 'Gypsy'). Presumably, you've caught 'them' in the act. Oh, wait... they're Gypsies... no need for evidence.

Martino
13-04-05, 05:20 AM
I know someone else with a BMW who says theyve had their mirrors stolen also. Odd.

If what maxd said is true, how is that sterotyping? And um, sterotyping usually exists because they are often based at least partly on fact - they are just the facts the stereotyped often dont want pointed out.

Like middle eastern people owning 7-11s. This one annoys me greatly. But uh, lots of quikie marts and 7-11s are run/owned by middle eastern people..

That said, keep in mind maxd that it could be regular old whiteys stealing your stuff. When I lived in Karlin some white Czech boy was hopping into windows and stealing shit off kitchen tables, and the Czechs thought it was some Roma because of the area - but the white kid was seen jumping out of the windows with goods in hand..

It was shock all the way round for the flat owners...

maxd
13-04-05, 11:48 AM
princeowales, people sterotype the Welsh. Something to do with sheep I think? I am intelligent enough to give you the benefit of doubt there ;)

This is guy here is an expert on "the fight against the systematic efforts to exterminate the Roma (also known as Gypsies) in Eastern Europe"

http://www.paulpolansky.nstemp.com/gypsies.htm

Here is what he has to say

"Although it is not politically correct today to talk about the criminal tendencies of "Gypsies" or to stereotype Gypsies as petty thieves, most Gypsies that I lived with take great pride in stealing. One of their oldest oral histories speaks of the ancient times when all horses roamed free until the gadzo (non-Romany) took all of them himself. The Romany then started to steal back what was once free for all men. Many Romany think stealing is proof of great intelligence. Others have the philosophy that all men steal. In my experience of living with Gypsies, I found that only those Gypsies without jobs, or those who were refused jobs because of the color of their skin, made a life out of crime. Those who were allowed to go to normal schools or have a proper job quickly gave up their "religion" of stealing."

Basically it is a cultural thing and I see it day after day in my street. For sure there is white trash too. A lot of it endemic from the legacy of the communist past where it was "ok" to steal from the state because they were stealing from you. That is not the debate here. The debate here is for the "5%" of "Roma" people I would take a good stab saying that there is a higher proportion of theives compared to some czesky honza's

Iojana
13-04-05, 05:02 PM
Can anyone tell me where this term "Roma" came from? It is very puzzling to me.
Thanks

P.S. Great point of views everyone no need however for name calling.

t\/\/4tf4(3
13-04-05, 05:35 PM
[QUOTE=Iojana]Can anyone tell me where this term "Roma" came from? It is very puzzling to me.
Thanks

P.S. Great point of views everyone no need however for name calling.[/QUOTE]

Aparantly it the Roma language is derived from the Romany language. anwsers.com (http://www.answers.com/topic/roma-people) has an entry about it, seems roma origins are in Northern India/Pakistan.
Chai (hindi) and čaj mean the same thing, totally unrelated but interesting to me anyway..

princeowales
13-04-05, 06:45 PM
[QUOTE=maxd]
This is guy here is an expert on "the fight against the systematic efforts to exterminate the Roma (also known as Gypsies) in Eastern Europe"

http://www.paulpolansky.nstemp.com/gypsies.htm

Here is what he has to say

"...In my experience of living with Gypsies, I found that only those Gypsies without jobs, or those who were refused jobs because of the color of their skin, made a life out of crime. Those who were allowed to go to normal schools or have a proper job quickly gave up their "religion" of stealing."

[/QUOTE]

Your conclusion seems to miss this essential point from Paul's discourse. A more apt conclusion might be that the more we marginalize these (or any) people, the more we force a reality out of the negative stereotype.

The sad truth is, the more we voice these stereotypes, the more support we give to such abominable practices as the forced sterilization of Roma women (quite common in the Czech Republic, by the way).

t\/\/4tf4(3
13-04-05, 06:53 PM
[QUOTE=princeowales]The sad truth is, the more we voice these stereotypes, the more support we give to such abominable practices as the forced sterilization of Roma women (quite common in the Czech Republic, by the way).[/QUOTE]

Good point wingnut!

Iojana
13-04-05, 08:14 PM
prince do you have a website or anything like that that can support your claim of forced sterilization? This sounds almost impossible and would like to read about it.
Thanks

maxd
13-04-05, 08:23 PM
http://iwraw.igc.org/publications/countries/slovakia.htm

Some nasty reading there

princeowales
13-04-05, 11:25 PM
http://www.errc.org/

from which I quote:

Romani Women Coercively Sterilised in the Czech Republic Come Forward

(Last modified: 2005-04-07 07:54:10)
Victim Advocacy Group Established to Press for Justice

Budapest, Prague, 7 April 2005.

On the eve of International Roma Day -- April 8 -- the ERRC and partner organisations take the opportunity to raise again the issue of justice for the victims of coercive sterilisation in the Czech Republic. Earlier this year, twenty-five Romani women coercively sterilised by Czech medical officials established a victim advocacy group called the Group of Women Harmed by Sterilisation to press authorities to press for justice. On the occasion of the establishment of the group, spokesperson Helena Ferencikova said, "We want public recognition by the Czech government of our suffering. We are owed legal remedy because our fundamental rights have been systemically violated by Czech doctors and other officials. We have decided that we will not be silent anymore."

There was also an article in the Prague Post a couple of months ago, but I don't have the specifc reference. Also there is mention in "Bury Me Standing", Isabel Fonseca's definitive work on the Roma in eastern Europe.

Also, a further quote from Paul Polanski's work bears mention:

A Romany Holocaust survivor summed up for me [Paul Polansky] what is happening today in the Czech Republic to his people:

"To be honest, any Romany who stays in this country today is an idiot. I am white, I can pass for a Czech, but those who are dark are stupid to stay here. Too many Czechs are trying to kill us, and the police are helping them. Five years ago I lived in Austria. If I knew what was going to happen after the Velvet Revolution, I never would have come back here.

"The Czechs have always hated us, before the war, during the Hitler times, during the communist times, even today in this democracy we are hated.

"There is only one place in this country where Romany are safe. If you go to Old Town here in Prague and go to Perlova Street, you will see the Romany prostitutes with the police all around because the police are paid by the hookers to protect them. The police have a business with them. But these are the only Romany safe in this country. This is the only place in the Czech Republic where Romany are protected from the skinheads."

Cuddly
14-04-05, 01:12 PM
It's not bullshit at all.

Von Lubek
14-04-05, 02:24 PM
I came here some years ago with a rose-coloured view of Gypsies as a nation. What a lot of ignorant bullshit.

Iojana
14-04-05, 04:43 PM
What happened Von, I dont know any gypsies and I've only been in Prague for visits so I dont have any experience with them at all but would like to know what everyone thinks and why.
Thanks

princeowales
14-04-05, 05:18 PM
Well, Butthead, et al, you're really quick with your mouths. You make the same mistake all bigots make; you confuse the part with the whole. I wonder, do you feel the same about Jews, about Blacks or other "people of color"? Or are Gypsies your only niggers?

Ledni Tonda
14-04-05, 05:55 PM
I will come to the defence of Butthead, et al. Their problem with "Gypsies" is not that they are "people of color" but that they have had bad experiences with many Roma.

To view Roma as a poorer version of yourself is inaccurate. The differences between "white folk" in Prague, and Roma is not about wealth, or opportunitiy, or skin color, but rather a matter of culture.

The Roma culture is substantially different from the dominant culture in the west. For example, Roma see theft from one another as a serious crime, but theft from non-Roma is seen widely as a valid career choice.

We could take a PC approach and make claims about striving for "multi-cultural acceptance" and "tolerance", but this will only work when the cultures are not in conflict.

Expecting "tolerance" of ongoing crime by Roma against your own property is great in theory but unrealistic in practice.

Most of us some to Prague with "tolerant views" but a few years of personal experience with Roma (and being the victim of Roma-enacted crime) will throw theories out of the window.

Butthead, et al, then, are not inherently racist about Roma, but rather sick of being the victims of Roma cultural norms (such as theft).

Cuddly
14-04-05, 06:36 PM
I've been here 5+ years and the only crimes I've been a victim of have been by 'white' Czechs. I've also met some really good Roma. Sorry, but they are not all thieves. Nothing's black and white. They may have had a culture of stealing (explanation was given in an earlier post); they are not innocent angels; but they are also very much discriminated against and have an extremely rough deal in central/eastern Europe, eg being denied citizenship and made effectively stateless in ex-Yugoslavia, with all the problems that go with that. Personally, I feel that the treatment and attitude and also violence of people against the Roma is a lot more sickening. Also there are many different Roma (ie different origins and separate communities), they are certainly not all the same.

t\/\/4tf4(3
14-04-05, 06:43 PM
maxd had some bits stolen from his car; Did he establish that the person who stole it was of Roma culture? Roma people may be well know for pilfering, but I don't see how automatically assuming the culture of the theif helps anyone.
Has anyone here heard the commie saying "He who does not steal steals from his family?"

Footbiscuit
14-04-05, 07:08 PM
There is also the lovely bit of how when Czechoslovakia split, some 200,000 Roma were left without passports to either country and as such are not able to travel, get state medical, get work permits, claim unemployment insurance, etc.. They can only work in the 'black' or steal.

Of course, the extermination of 80% of the Roma population during the war and those left being put in 'special schools' wherein they are unable to get to any form of higher education or income didn't help much either.

There is no Gypsy problem. They are less than 5% of the population of this country with no political power whatsoever. There is, however, a Czech problem as they are the only ones who can make the changes required to repair the Roma people in the Czech lands. I'd also doubt any figures as to the amount of Roma thieves as opposed to Czech thieves; I can just imagine the reaction of a Czech police officer observing a 'white' Czech making off with materials from a construction site and his reaction to seeing a Roma in the same act. Which one do you think is going to get arrested?

I'm reminded of the attitudes that my parents generation mostly had towards the west coast native population. It changed when they started teaching the native culture to elementary school children so that when we became adults, we didn't see a drunk indian, but a person whom we are responsible for due to a nasty piece of history. Since then, land claims settlements are in process, the bands are making claims against the schools and churches that tortured and abused them and for most part, they are supported in these claims by the population at large.

princeowales
14-04-05, 07:51 PM
[QUOTE=Lendi Tonda]The differences between "white folk" in Prague, and Roma is not about wealth, or opportunitiy, or skin color, but rather a matter of culture.

The Roma culture is substantially different from the dominant culture in the west. For example, Roma see theft from one another as a serious crime, but theft from non-Roma is seen widely as a valid career choice.

We could take a PC approach and make claims about striving for "multi-cultural acceptance" and "tolerance", but this will only work when the cultures are not in conflict.

Expecting "tolerance" of ongoing crime by Roma against your own property is great in theory but unrealistic in practice.

Most of us some to Prague with "tolerant views" but a few years of personal experience with Roma (and being the victim of Roma-enacted crime) will throw theories out of the window.

Butthead, et al, then, are not inherently racist about Roma, but rather sick of being the victims of Roma cultural norms (such as theft).[/QUOTE]


You're quite right, it's not primarily an issue of skin color. To see this, all you need to do is to substitute "Jew" for "Roma". The bigotry is the same. And look where that led (for the Roma as well).

Where you're wrong is thinking they're not inherently racist about Roma. This is the very essence of racism: the broadly inclusionary, yet frequently oblique accusation of 'them'.

Please tell me, Butthead, et al., just what, specifically, have 'they' done to you personally?

llorca
14-04-05, 08:27 PM
Acc. to the local police (Prague), 'they' broke into my car and 'they' also stole my friend's car.

'They' were either "gypsies or Ukrainians" (quote/unquote).

Whoever 'they' were, it hardly endears you to them, does it? Either the police are lying (quite possibly) or there's a grain of truth in what they're saying.

I do see Roma hassling people around Andel bus station on a regular basis trying to sell fake watches, but that's more comical than annoying. I do however feel sorry for the old people who fall for their tricks (thrust watch in hand > demand money). They can also be quite aggressive / intimidating if you let them.

As for the petty theft occurring in Carrefour Andel on a daily basis (up to 30 thefts a day acc. to the local police) - it's anyone's guess who's behind it, although it has been intimated that "they" are heavily involved.

Pure conjecture, but hardly positive.

queendagmar
14-04-05, 08:46 PM
Eventhough picpocketting might be done mostly by gypsies does not mean all gypsies are like that. Though they are all viewed as a group. Next to it their culture and livestyle always used to be different. It always takes both sides to improve things.

I have unsure relationship to gypsies. In a place where I grew up we used to have friends who were gypsies and it was no problem. In Prague I got more negative experience including pickpocketting or shouting at and usually we do not mix. Any agressive crime though should be punnished the same, no matter who was the victim.

Secondly, no need to call everybody racist or biggot for criticisig others beacuse of his/her experience or pointing out some problems that regard people of another race.
It amazes me how easiily is the word racism used nowadays. I see the same thing happening in Holland.

Von Lubek
14-04-05, 08:48 PM
Toejam and PoW, you seem to accuse the Czech nation as a whole. Being British and US citizens, who gave you any right to generalise about racism and xenophobia coming where your from? I don`t want to say stay longer and find out because your type of extreme ignorant benevolence is what makes this world sickening really.
The gypsie problem was passed on to the Czechs by the communist regime involuntarily. Hitler made sure only about 20 somethign gypsies surived WW2.Let them (Czech government)deal with the accompanying crime and social problems which they(gypsies or rom, whatever you want to call them) brought along the way they(Czechs) deem fit.
You think it the Czech nation`s fault that the norm for gypsie mothers is to bring their very young and underaged girls up as prostitutes and thieves? That is one thing, there a lot of other things that ar enot forced on them as in not going to school and encouraged by parents. Having as many children as they can to get payed benefits from the goverment. There are a lot of exceptions, I am talking as a cultural and average whole. That is something they`ve been doing for many generations and wherever they go, immorality and and all kinds of domestic and social sicknesses follows them. You think it strange that any civilised and western society wouldn`t want them among their homes and children? Why not give them all plane tickets to the US, theres lots of space for all the so called disadvantaged in the world and you phillantropists can look after them there in peace and quiet and no one will bother you, believe me.
It is a cultural problem, not a skinproblem. But only the parents can change that, so that the children have a different view of the world around them. Who will give it to them, you?if not, is it the Czech`s responsebility?
And then calling other`s names, which leg do you stand on?

Illorca the fact that Andel(Smichov) has a largely gypsy population except for the expats living in cheaper, newly renovated flats has obviously nothing to do with that I guess.
And let me straighten something out as well, I don`t hate any race or nation. I am an ethnic realist if anything.

princeowales
14-04-05, 09:18 PM
[QUOTE=Von Lubek]That is something they`ve been doing for many generations and wherever they go, immorality and and all kinds of domestic and social sicknesses follows them. [/QUOTE]

I rest my case.

t\/\/4tf4(3
14-04-05, 09:41 PM
[QUOTE=Von Lubek]who gave you any right to generalise about racism and xenophobia coming where your from?
.....
You think it the Czech nation`s fault that the norm for gypsie mothers is to bring their very young and underaged girls up as prostitutes and thieves?[/QUOTE]

Thanks Von Lubek ... Are you performing anywhere in prague soon? If not I think you should get hold of some comedy club managers.

Von Lubek
14-04-05, 09:58 PM
joking? maybe if you wipe out the sleep out of your eyes, you`ll notice a few more things in life around you. Your obviously a desktop jockey. There is proof and facts everywhere, go walk the streets, travel a bit through this country, not just by taxi or trains, but walk and live it. Don`t stay out of the poor areas , walk through it. What, your scared? too lazy? feet too soft?
I have been robbed, drugged and robbed, beaten and pickpocketed here plenty of times. Partly of walking around indescriminately around and through bad neighbourhoods, places and streets everywhere I go alone. Partly because I am curious but mostly because I don`t know and haven`t been. I`ve met the underground here, some of the Ukrainian/Bulgarian/Russian gangs and some of worse kind. These things like prostitution is some of the things that are most common and open, seen in the byway. Go look on the roads on the way to Germany and Austria. Where have you been? I talk about what I know, what I`ve seen, not hearsay, you softbrained twat. Answer an argument with an argument, you show your ignorant,stupidity by jumping immediately into namecalling without answering a thing. Safe behind your desk, wanker. No doubt a genetic product of useless ancestors now coming to polute the rest of the world with your inherent stupidity.

princeowales
14-04-05, 10:05 PM
[QUOTE=Von Lubek]No doubt a genetic product of useless ancestors now coming to polute the rest of the world with your inherent stupidity.[/QUOTE]

Quick, off to the ovens with him!

Von Lubek
14-04-05, 10:06 PM
haha yeah right

t\/\/4tf4(3
14-04-05, 10:13 PM
[QUOTE=Von Lubek]Your obviously a desktop jockey.[/QUOTE]

At least I'm not a sausage jockey ( you know like Bon Scott was :-) )

Well let me know if your doing a show somewhere, I might even pay (though not very much) to see it. I'll only come if there's a good diversity of folk at the venue. Please don't get too deep though, not sure my eggshell mind could handle it.

maxd
14-04-05, 11:09 PM
Basically for me I do live near Andel. There are 2 houses at the end of Zubateho and some bad ass Roma families live in there. I never park my car outside these houses even if a place is free because I know from all the smashed glass there is a likelood of you property being violated.

So maybe for me I just wish the families would move away. If you go to the across the street to Arbesovo Namesti you will not feel like going to sit in the park because it is overrun by Roma who deal shit there ( have a good look by the phone box next time you go past) . In my younger days I would probably go and score something and would be happy but I am getting to be a grumpy old git now and do not like to see it. These house ARE without a shadow of doubt responsible for most of the crime in the immediate area as I have witnessed and the other people in my office. The crime is never violent, just a quick smash of a window and tehy are off down to the safehouse at teh end of the road. Lets not say Gypsies in general for me but these mofos at the end of Zubateho should be thrown in Jail. We have asked for cameras to be put in the street but there is no money which is short sighted as the amount these people cost society in general is far more than a few hidden cameras.

You can debate this all night and the conversation

maxd
14-04-05, 11:27 PM
sorry fell asleep in the last bit of the rant there.

maxd
14-04-05, 11:41 PM
Had a latte in carrefour 2 hours back, just got instant at home now. Got to get me one of those latte machines

gwaitsi
15-04-05, 01:24 AM
if anyone is interested, i have the following items for sale; -

- 2pcs left hand indicator light covers
- 1pcs right hand indicator light cover
- 1 skoda bonnet emblem
- 3 mercedes bonnet emblems (2xC-class,1xE-Class)
- 4 wild fire 17" rims
- 1 Mugen exhaust fitting

All items come from a reputable gypsy who sold his car and spare parts to me.

Mick Travis
15-04-05, 03:15 AM
This is my favorite quote

[QUOTE=Von Lubek]The gypsie problem was passed on to the Czechs by the communist regime involuntarily. Hitler made sure only about 20 somethign gypsies surived WW2.[/QUOTE]

cause I really can't tell if the author was actually advocating the Final Solution. I may have some T-Shirts for him:

http://www.tshirthell.com/store/product.php?productid=192

http://www.tshirthell.com/store/product.php?productid=385

Seriously though, I'm really surprised at such casual racism. This isn't a problem with Roma culture, it's a problem with certain individuals. You may have had bad experiences with Roma individuals, but you can't reflect that upon an entire culture. Like someone said before, substitute "Jew" or "Black" for "Gypsy" in some of your statements and think for a minute.

If the "gypsies" are such a big problem here, you can always move to downtown Detroit. But please write back after a while to let us know what you think of crime there, and the "culture" that must be responsible for it.

princeowales
15-04-05, 06:44 AM
[QUOTE=Mick Travis]Like someone said before, substitute "Jew" or "Black" for "Gypsy" in some of your statements and think for a minute.[/QUOTE]

Sadly, I believe this individual would readily subtitute "Jew" or "Black" for "Gypsy" and mean exactly the same thing. Most bigots of my experience are rather indiscriminate toward whom they direct their venom, so long as it is an "other".

The following are excerpted from Encyclopedia of Genocide (1997) by Israel W. Charny (ed.) :

In September, 1935, Roma became subject to the restrictions of the Nuremberg Law for the
Protection of German Blood and Honor, which forbade intermarriage between Germans and "non-Aryans," specifically Jews, Roma and people of
African descent.

In 1938, the first reference to "The Final Solution of the Gypsy Question" appeared, in a document signed by Himmler on December 8th that year.

In January, 1940, the. first mass genocidal action of the Holocaust took place when 250 Romani
children were murdered in Buchenwald, where they were used as guinea-pigs to test the efficacy of the Zyklon-B crystals, later used in the gas chambers. In June, 1940, Hitler ordered the
liquidation of "all Jews, Gypsies and communist political functionaries in the entire Soviet
Union."

On August 1st, 1944, four thousand Roma were gassed and cremated in a single action at
Auschwitz-Birkenau, in what is remembered as Zigeunernacht.

There are no accurate figures for the prewar Romani population in Europe, though the Nazi Party's official census of 1939 estimated
it to be about two million. The latest (1997) figure from the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Research Institute in Washington puts the number of Romani lives
lost by 1945 at "between a half and one and a half million."

Von Lubek
15-04-05, 07:29 AM
my best friends were Jewish when I grew up and I have lived and worked a long time in Israel. I also had African childhoodfriends and still have. They would be laughing at all your idiotic remarks now by the way.
Mick, the travisty is that you don`t read or even take in what I said before. I am not racist. What I am saying is let (Detroit) deal with their own and let the Czechs deal with their own. If there is a large percentage of a cultural group in jail for thieving and a large percentage of the same of prostitutes, is it still individual? and please try to understand the whole concept, I don`t want to be writing pages to explain all the premises to you.(the Czech gypsies were nearly exterminated in the holocaust)and then again whatever, there seem to be a lot of paperpushers around who rely on journalists to do their research for them. Journalists for those who haven`t been around them much do most things to get payed. Ethics and honesty doesn`t mean much when the paycheck comes with whatever view is popular at the moment.
NGO`S are even worse as witnesses(from past experience), they are mostly ignorant and uncapable of understanding of current situations and events and past histories leading to events in the situations they work in.
So coming back to front, if I have Jewish friends and African friends and even Indian(gypsie origin) and Turkish friends and live and work with them adn I express an opinion about the gypsies in the Czech region, does that make me racist? if I call you names as part of my diatribe does that make me calling for the final solution? God forbid that I say anything against childmolesters walking free, what would that make me. Probably a warmonger using your logic.
I thought wisdom comes with age. Apparently not.

oktobernight
15-04-05, 12:13 PM
Did you guys see that episode of The Simpsons where Springfield Elementary is broke? Lisa says something about "maybe we can finally get the gypsies off the playground!" and then they show a little camp of gypsies with a wagon around a fire, playing music... some of the playing children throw a frisbee that lands in the gypsy camp and the gypsy man yells at the children, "IS OUR FRISBEE NOW!"

That was funny.

Footbiscuit
15-04-05, 12:14 PM
You read just about as well as you write, BH. I fear for your students.

I didn't say the Indian wasn't drunk, but rather than writing him off as a person, my generation of western Canadians due to education know that he has a very rich culture and history that is separate and from the 'white' culture and that the 'white' culture through mostly innocent and well meaning actions (excepting a bunch of crazy priests) quite buggered up that of the west coast natives. Being stolen from your parents as a child, stuck in a boarding school with violent and sexually abusive priests, not being allowed to speak your own language and then finding out that alcohol makes this all go away (with a lower genetic tolerance for that alcohol) tends to make a mess of somebody. It is reasonable that if I understand why this person is a mess, I can have some sympathy for their actions or lack thereof. As for the rest of my post, please read it again as you seem to have missed an awful lot of it, or, you have decided that blindness is easier than thinking.

Again, there is no gypsy problem, there is a Czech problem and until Czechs find the political will to deal with it, the problem will continue.

My god, I'm arguing the benefits of education with a teacher...

Footbiscuit
15-04-05, 12:52 PM
If I taught in Kralupy I'd understand better why you can't read or write? Maybe it's the air...

dolphingirl
15-04-05, 01:05 PM
WOW, just read this entire thread..

folks, it's a cultural thing. I am from Chicago where there is a HUGE Gypsie/Roma population, and they generally live outside of society much the way Hasidic Jews or the Amish do!!!

They own businesses, and interact to a certain level with the rest of the population,but generally have their own neighborhoods, restaurants, clubs, etc.

Yes there is a cultural thing about stealing.

oh and for all of you racists, Hitler REALLY got it wrong with tossing the Roma camps and ovens, as they are the original Aryans!!!

see here - http://www.umd.umich.edu/casl/hum/eng/classes/434/charweb/HISTORYO.htm

or even better this one
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/history.htm

queendagmar
15-04-05, 01:12 PM
You are not correct, Footbiscuit, its both gypsy and Czech problem.
Taking away responsibility from them and blaming it all on the society is hypocritical. They have to look self critically and see why these things are happening there and what to do to improve it. Not sending kids to school leads to low education and less chance to get a decent job. Education is the key and 8 years of basic school is not a decent education. In some regions unemployment within gypsy community reaches 90 %. This can be caused because they are already discriminated and have no fair chance to get a job eventhough they have the skills, or because they prefer not to work and live from benefits.

On the other side Czechs have to get rid of their prejudies against the gypsies and give them fair chance. I am sure that there are some decent gypsies who have have done nothing wrong.

To integrate gypsies into the society is difficult everywhere, not just in Central and Eastern Europe. The way they they used to live on the edge of society for centuries, has influenced their behaviour. Same thing happen everywhere and the problems that appear are simillar to the ones in CR. Some of the gypsies are stil living the traditional way of life with moving around.

Maybe the forceful integration caused problems and they were suddenly forced to live a live they did not want to live.

Dolphigirl. I think it would be better for the gypsies to have their restaurants, businesses, clubs and others as they have in Chicago, that would make them feel useful and solve the high unemployment among them as well.

Did you see "CR searches for superstar" last year. There was a girl who was a gypsy, Martina Balogova. She was really good. Now some people would not vote for her because she was a gypsy, others because they did not like her singing or thought she was not likeable, but there were many who supported her regardless of her origin and she got pretty far, to the last 5.

Footbiscuit
15-04-05, 01:23 PM
I'm not saying that they are not at least partially responsible for themselves, but as a heavily damaged society living in country that often openly discriminates against them they have little chance for the self-reflection required to make the changes on their own. My suggestion is also not that Czechs should do anything to help them other than educating themselves as to the history and culture of the Romany people on the Czech lands. I firmly believe that if you start teaching kids what a gypsy is, the prejudices will start to disappear and then the political will to do something about the problem will arise.

Martino
15-04-05, 02:13 PM
Thats incorrect dolphingirl. These pages you posted are just wrong in many ways. Most Indians are not aryans - they are a totally different people from the persians/medes.

There are 2 main theories on aryan origin. 1 is that they originated in Iran ('land of aryans', literally) and the other is that they came down from the caucases, stopped at the plateau of Iran and split into the persians and the medes.

The persians are still there. The medes kept migrating.

Some did go to India - but they were (and still are in most cases) a very small and very high caste who looked down on the roma and only enlisted them to fight their battles for them.

In fact, the most recent reputable studies ive seen by hancock suggest the roma were never from 1 specific group, but rather a collection from various tribes.

yes, they speak an indo-aryan language. you would too if you lived in the area in that time.

this is a subject ive studied for a long time, and admittedly it is a blurry one. but most credible scientists will tell you the modern day aryan is closest to the modern persian than ever the german is - and the roma are not from either of them.

with love, your resident aryan.

Aquarius
15-04-05, 02:52 PM
[QUOTE=Footbiscuit] heavily damaged society living in country that[/QUOTE]
You don't teach English too, do you? :D

Aquarius
15-04-05, 02:54 PM
I have heard, though, Martino, that the Roma language most resembles Persian. Although, I've also heard it most resembles Urdu.

BGI
15-04-05, 04:28 PM
I would suggest if anyone from Western Europe or USA supports the gypsies, please take them in your countries.
And have a lot of fun afterwards!
Enjoy!

t\/\/4tf4(3
15-04-05, 05:11 PM
[QUOTE=BGI]I would suggest if anyone from Western Europe or USA supports the gypsies, please take them in your countries.
And have a lot of fun afterwards!
Enjoy![/QUOTE]

In my native land we have an awful lot of "them", here's just one article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cambridgeshire/3781237.stm) about it. I have personally been sieged, trapped in a building, surrounded by 60+ gypsies before; The police had to be called ....
I think some here would think me stupid to have any sympathy for "them". However my view is that if you show anyone disrespect by default, based on their appearance, you are contributing to the problem.

Martino
15-04-05, 06:54 PM
Aqua - Urdu comes from the Indic (such as Hindi) languages. Yeah its written in Arabic letters like Farsi it, but its spoken like Hindi. Hindi comes from Sanskrit.

Every credible source Ive ever read points to Romani language as having come from the Indic languages.

Sorry, got to disagree with you on the related to farsi thing.. ;)

dolphingirl
15-04-05, 06:59 PM
thanks Martino.. the second site seemed to support what you said.. i just tossed that info out there as MANY people don't know any of that info.. I was merely pointing out that MOST people think that Aryans are the blonde haired, blue eyed ideal that Hitler was after, and they aren't.

as for sympathies.. well i feel that any group which is outside of the majority has to take responsibility for their actions..

some do so peacefully

1) The Amish, Mennonites, Quakers, etc., they all live on farms, don't use electricity, but do business with the local communities around where they live.. everyone is happy. They are even letting kids when they turn 18 spend a year or two in the "modern" world, and then let them make the choice if they want to leave or remain part of the community.
2) Hasidic Jews - you know the guys in the black clothes with beards - they run the diamond trade in New York, and in other major cities have businesses and are part of the community and at the same time not.
3) Gypsies - well they are known for being thieves in the US too.. but there are also many who, like the Jews, have their own businesses, and the like, and live both in and out of the community.


I think what Footbiscuit was trying to say was learn about a marginalized group to find out why they are the way they are and your attitude may change.. and yes it's still their choice to take advantage of things that are offered to them -- being forced out of schools and losing one's citizenship, really don't give people choices.

handing them checks everyweek and giving them preference for jobs and school under the guise of affirmative action do help.. if those choices are made.

OR they can live the stererotype and continue perpetrating an image that makes people hate them more!! (oh and this goes for ANY stereotype)

all this racial talk is making me tired.. can't we all just get along ;)

Martino
15-04-05, 07:38 PM
I hate to correct you again, but I have a slew of Swiss/ German Mennonites in my family. They went to the US in the 1600's to be Mennonite preachers.

My relatives all drive cars (though they insist they be black cars) and they all live in regular houses. Yeah some dont drive cars. But dont think thats true of them all, or of only the 'religious' ones.

Some Mennonites use electricity - some dont. (and my family isnt the only exception.)

The Mennonites actually predate the Amish - The Amish broke off from them because they felt the Mennonites werent shunning people the way they ought to be. (this was hundreds of years ago)

And a word on the Amish - Many many of them take no issue with letting YOU drive them round in YOUR car.. they just wont have one of their own.. :rolleyes:

pavelpavel
15-04-05, 08:16 PM
[QUOTE=t\/\/4tf4(3]In my native land we have an awful lot of "them", here's just one article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cambridgeshire/3781237.stm) about it. I have personally been sieged, trapped in a building, surrounded by 60+ gypsies before; The police had to be called .... [/QUOTE]

Damn Pikeys...

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/SHOWBIZ/Movies/01/15/guy.ritchie/story.movie.jpg

t\/\/4tf4(3
15-04-05, 09:03 PM
[QUOTE=pavelpavel]Damn Pikeys...

[/QUOTE]

|f -<0|_|r 83|/|-| 0|/| |_|5||/|6 4|\/|3r1)4|\| 40|-0r5 |-0 p0r|-r3>- 6>-p5>-'5 j0|-||\|\|>- (|3p (http://www.spietati.it/archivio/recensioni/rece-2000-2001/rece-2000-2001-m/man_who_cried.htm) 15 4 |\/||_|0|-| 83|--|3r
(|-|01(3!

http://society.guardian.co.uk/raceequality/comment/0,8146,1126993,00.html

dolphingirl
16-04-05, 11:10 AM
no problem Martino... i was just making general examples.. thanks again for the info!!!
btw, your folks know how to cook!! the two best restaurants outside of the town where I went to college were Mennonite.. mmmmm BEST apple pie EVER!! In the States the various groups are collectively known as Pennsylvania Dutch.

Aquarius
16-04-05, 12:32 PM
Hey, my Grandma was Amish...

Martino, what I had read(and reported) was a THEORY stating that nobody really was sure where exactly the Romany had come from, but various theories placed them from India to Persia...

... not saying that they're old Persians to be clear, just that it's been THEORISED along with many other places, although, really, what's a Persian, anyway? Iran has so many different cultures and ethnic groups...and languages, too.

I knew that Urdu isn't a Semitic language: in fact, I didn't even know it used the Arabic alphabet! So, learn something new everyday.
Most of the things I've read on the Romany(and I've by no means made a study of them) place their language closest to Urdu, BTW.

I think that the problem in European countries is double sided. As a few people have already pointed out.
I have known SO MANY Czechs who frankly say very very racist things about Romany. And it is a fact that many employers would not even give a Roma a chance at a job.
And somebody told me last week, that the Social Democrats are in power only because the Romany vote for them because they promise bigger welfare packages and he said he thought that they shouldn't be allowed to vote!!:eek:
And it is also a fact that most Romany ARE scammers...whether it's something inherent in their culture or something caused by their position, doesn't matter. It is probably also true that many of them(the uneducated ones, which is probably most of them) probably have a different concept of time than traditional "European"(read "white") culture does.

Whatever, the difference in the cultures do nothing but feed the racism espoused by both sides. And thus make the "problem" worse. It is a "Czech" problem, because these people are "Czech" by nationality, if not by ethnicity.

This is true of all multi-ethnic countries, by the way, US, Holland, Canada, France, you name it.(I have read very racist things from white Canadians ON THIS SITE regarding Indians, for the Canadian who claims that Canada lacks problems in this area.)
It is too simple to just blame the majority or the minority.

Personally, I really think this problem varies from place to place. In my town,Vsetin there's a bit less tension than in the first town I lived in, Sokolov. There were more Romany there, and frankly, I learned within a few weeks to avoid them, though they never physically threatened me, they just constantly harrassed me for money. It's happened here, but not to the extent that it happened there.
In the last town I lived in, Val Mez, many of them had jobs, there was even an interracial couple, a red-headed Czech guy and a Romany girl, who I would see at pubs drinking together.

I am close to Slovakia and many of the white people here think that "locally-born" Roma are okay, it's their damned cousins that come to "visit from Slovakia because they get more money from the Government here". (Not my words.)

I believe the solution does lie in education: I think that Czech schools would ideally teach things about "Romany culture and history, and language" and that possibly duo-language classrooms or at least kindergartens might be held. Kids learn languages quicly, but they don't learn if the teacher secretly thinks they are retarded by reason of their ethnicity. Obviously, the Romany ARE a clever people.
Of course, the Czechs would throw an absolute shit-fit if this was to happen. But I really don't think integration and harmony will be possible until the educational system reflects the desire for it to be...and even then it will take a long time.

Martino
16-04-05, 02:04 PM
Aqua - Persians are Persians. Yeah there are many groups in Iran - the largest is the Persians.

princeowales
16-04-05, 04:24 PM
[QUOTE=Aquarius]And it is also a fact that most Romany ARE scammers...whether it's something inherent in their culture or something caused by their position, doesn't matter. It is probably also true that many of them(the uneducated ones, which is probably most of them) probably have a different concept of time than traditional "European"(read "white") culture does.
[/QUOTE]

Aqua, Reading your complete post leads me to believe your heart is probably in the right place, but, probably without intent, you fall into the classic language traps that lead to racist comments.

Don't you think it might be just a bit more accurate to say "some Roma are scammers", or "I believe most Roma are scammers", rather than stating as fact something that belongs more in stereotype than in reality? (BTW, Romani is generally used in reference to the language rather than to the people, who are Roma.)

Also, to attribute their supposed different concept of time to their lack of [western European] education and then to include the comment in the same paragraph about their being scammers is to demean what is essentially only a cultural, not a moral, difference. It also implies that western European education is the norm to which they must submit.

Many, if not most cultures in the world have different concepts of time. For example, in the Nahua language, the root language for northern Mexican Indians, the smallest division of time for which there is a single word is the day. This has cultural implications, of course, but as someone once pointed out to me, it's really only important if you need to catch a train (someone else pointed out to me that times on a Mexican rail schedule were simply the times before which the train wouldn't leave... probably).

You seem to imply that 'traditional "European" (read "White") culture' has: A. all the same concept of time, and: B. this is somehow superior to other concepts of time (many other time-cultures see us as walking around with a clock stuck up our collective asses).

Since your post certainly indicates a high level of intelligence, I believe you can see how such thoughts fit quite neatly into the general view that I don't think you really meant, that "We whites just do it better", and that's the very core of racism.

Aquarius
16-04-05, 04:57 PM
You're right, I didn't mean that "most" are scammers, I should have said "some" and I feel bad about saying that: it is a high number, however.

One thing that is forgotten when f.e. Czechs rail against the welfare cases amoung the Roma is how many young Czechs also take advantage of the system in the same ways. In the end, the Roma get targetted by the people because they are DIFFERENT, which is of course, unfair.

I by no means think that any "white" culture is superior to another. Morally, or otherwise. Nor do I think that other culture's should "submit" to the culture it finds itself surrounded by.


But I do think that if 98 percent of a culture does something a certain way, it is a good idea to learn what that way is, so that there be no excuses:
if I pay an employee, and he disappears for two weeks and doesn't come back til his money is spent...he's fired. This isn't necessarily cultural insensitivity: it is simply business, in my world. You could argue that HE is forcing my business to submit to his cultural values which is just as wrong. I think that education is needed to lessen the gap of cultural misunderstanding, that's all, and for it to be effective, it has to educate BOTH cultures. And it will take a long time.

There is no reason for, say, the Czechs to change their culture to that of the Romas', either. Roma culture is not more moral than Czech culture either, is it? Herein lies the problem, right?

princeowales
16-04-05, 06:04 PM
[QUOTE=Aquarius]I think that education is needed to lessen the gap of cultural misunderstanding, that's all, and for it to be effective, it has to educate BOTH cultures. And it will take a long time.
[/QUOTE]

And herein lies much of the problem. Stereotypes prevail in virtually all education systems, whether embedded in textbooks or simply implied by teacher's (or even other student's) comments and attitudes. Couple this with the Czech Republic's (and most other countries within eastern Europe) practice of putting nearly all Roma children in "special education" classes where they are, by and large, simply baby-sat rather than taught, the premise being that, because they are Roma, they are essentially unteachable.(for support for these assertions, I refer you to the previously cited websites in this thread).

The answer has to lie in educating children away from stereotypical thinking, away from racist-based cultural norms, away from the kind of allness thinking that substitutes 'most' for 'some', 'all' for 'a few' and 'it's a fact' for 'I believe'.

Gary Frances
16-04-05, 06:36 PM
You young folk can argue and laugh about stereotypes but back in the old days we only had Mono....especially the early Beatles and Stones.

princeowales
16-04-05, 06:57 PM
[QUOTE=Gary Frances]You young folk can argue and laugh about stereotypes but back in the old days we only had Mono....especially the early Beatles and Stones.[/QUOTE]

Back in the old days, we called that the kissing disease.

Gary Frances
17-04-05, 12:31 PM
The kising disease was caused by the rock and roll. Or so they said, at the time.

ARTSCOTT
18-04-05, 09:11 AM
The Roma are not liked even in their own native India...northern India...I have many Indian friends and employees and we have discussed the Roma Gypsy....From times long past they were a culture of people (the women very alluring and beautiful) that have been outcasts...whether or not they have always stolen and scammed for their profits one can only speculate however they are very talented in the art of deception and this has been true throughout history.....but other northern indians tried to run them out from there they spread into Romania, Bulgaria and so on and we have them here in the "Middle of No Where" ( as one of you called Kansas and hell I agree)..here however they do send their children to school to learn and to be smarter in their deception....the Gypsy King here became wealthy from scrap aluminum...his family drives a caravan of large chevy blazer pulling 8' X 15' trailers going from Machineshop to manchine shop carting off the scrap metals.....his actual place of business has been shut down several times for procuring aluminum plates (4'X8') stamped with the Boeing Aircraft companies ID's....He lives very close to Wichita State University...and the Walmart's, K-Marts and Targets still go on Gypsy alert throughout the summer when they go ontheir shopping sprees with their 5 finger discounts...it is something to watch them come into a large store and do their dances and such but the cops spoil it all....they are the original fortune tellers....one of this generations more famous is Raymond Buckland, college professor, author & lecturer on the occult.
Dobre Den.

pavelpavel
18-04-05, 11:49 AM
[QUOTE=ARTSCOTT]...the women very alluring and beautiful...[/QUOTE]

See, now that part I never got...

http://www.rootsaroundtheworld.info/assets/Vera%20Bila.jpg

Footbiscuit
18-04-05, 03:09 PM
I've been here over nine years now BH, married into the country, lived in the thickest 'Gypsy' neighbourhoods in Prague and I studied European history in university. Am I qualified to comment yet or do I have to be you in order to understand you?

Martino
18-04-05, 03:19 PM
What exactly are the thickest 'gypsy' 'hoods in prague?

princeowales
18-04-05, 03:37 PM
[QUOTE=butthead]Damnit I'm tired of this spouting off by people who are clueless. I've taught gyspy children, have you?

Yes, Surely that's not a factor in this problem is it?
Now, let's only hear from people with experience in this , shall we?

And BTW, "There is no gyspy problem, only a czech one."
You owe us an explantion as to how you are qualified to make this statement.
Answer this:
"How many yeqars have you been here? Surely you're not a newbie who after a few months is an expert on the situation already?[/QUOTE]


You keep harping on this issue, as though, A. the problem in the CR is somehow unique in the world (it isn't. Bigotry is quite international) and, B. that your experience in teaching Roma children has taught YOU anything. I would suggest it hasn't; I would further suggest you brought this bigotry to the job from the beginning.

BTW, I didn't make the statement, "there is no gypsy problem,only a czech one." That's from someone else, and it's not a statement I agree with. As with most problems, it cuts both ways. But you seem to feel the reverse, that it is only a Roma problem; if THEY would only be just like us, there wouldn't be a problem.

You also seem to feel that one can only understand the issue from within. You clearly demonstrate that being within can have zero effect on one's ignorance. But since you keep bring up the issue of experience and expertise, I make no claim to expertise, but unlike you, I have offered documentation and support from experts in the field such as Paul Polansky, et al.

However, I do submit I have far greater experience than you, having worked with disadvantaged and marginalized children (including Roma) throughout the world, including Russia and eastern Europe, probably longer than you have been alive (I base that on your assertions being so sophmoric), almost certainly longer than you have been in the CR, and one thing I have learned is that if there is a single cause of all these problems, it is the adamantine ignorance and buttheaded bigotry of people such as you.

Footbiscuit
18-04-05, 04:00 PM
Ha ha!!! So, if someone doesn't share your opinion, they must be an idiot or a liberal? I always thought it was supposed to be liberals that had a victim complex.

The point is that the Roma population is incapable of taking responsiblity for itself due to their culture and populations being decimated by Czechs during WWII. There are also such a small percentage of the population that they don't have any power to make any of the changes required to get them back on the road again; only Czechs can do that.

US military says that if you kill 30% of a population than the remaining population suffers permanent psychological damage. 80% of Czech gypsies were killed during the war. Work it out for yourself, BH, you can't see the forest for the trees anymore.

pavelpavel
18-04-05, 04:05 PM
[QUOTE=Footbiscuit]80% of Czech gypsies were killed during the war.[/QUOTE]

Please provide a source for this number.

Martino
18-04-05, 04:13 PM
[QUOTE=pavelpavel]Please provide a source for this number.[/QUOTE]

Hey, wait your turn, pavel. Im still waiting for an answer to my question.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

princeowales
18-04-05, 04:37 PM
[QUOTE=butthead]Now please before we continue, prove me a racist or use a more accurate label.
I'll be waiting, or are you like those who accussed me of being a homophobe and could never back up their accusations.
[/QUOTE]

You're a homophobe, too?

Just to set the record straight, I haven't called you a racist, I have called you a bigot. I think you would blame the victim regardless of racial origin, and that attitude is implicit throughout your postings to this thread. You support the blame of all Roma for the actions of some Roma. You amplify from the specific to the general, as in the following quotes from you:

"The problem lies in Roma parents that refuse to help their kids learn..."pg 7

"so what do you say about that mother I quoted? Are the teachers at fault because the mother refuses to participate in the educational process?
Do you see possibily why gypsy students end up in special schools?" pg.8 (BTW, I would like to know just what this mother's attitude has to do with the learning ability of an entire category of children? I could get you almost identical quotes from dozens, if not hundreds, of nice white middle-class American moms whose kids don't get put in special ed classes)

pavelpavel
18-04-05, 04:46 PM
[QUOTE=Martino]Hey, wait your turn, pavel. Im still waiting for an answer to my question.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Still waiting...

Footbiscuit
18-04-05, 04:53 PM
I've sourced a number of 70% for Nazi occupied countries...

http://www.travellersupport.org.uk/romhist.htm

And a set of numbers that makes 80% look good from Radio Praha...

http://www.radio.cz/en/article/41327

As Czechs were completely in charge of the camps of Lety and Hodonin and were responsible for the 'packaging' of the gypsies for being sent to the death camps outside the country, I don't feel so bad about holding the Czech people as at least as responsible for the deaths of those shipped out as the Nazis; they surely knew why they were being shipped out.

The idea of you teaching children just kills me, BH.

pavelpavel
18-04-05, 05:10 PM
[QUOTE=Footbiscuit]I've sourced a number of 70% for Nazi occupied countries...

http://www.travellersupport.org.uk/romhist.htm

And a set of numbers that makes 80% look good from Radio Praha...

http://www.radio.cz/en/article/41327

As Czechs were completely in charge of the camps of Lety and Hodonin and were responsible for the 'packaging' of the gypsies for being sent to the death camps outside the country, I don't feel so bad about holding the Czech people as at least as responsible for the deaths of those shipped out as the Nazis; they surely knew why they were being shipped out.

The idea of you teaching children just kills me, BH.[/QUOTE]

Thank you.

ARTSCOTT
18-04-05, 06:24 PM
(alluring and beautiful) Originally posted by me

[QUOTE=pavelpavel]See, now that part I never got...

http://www.rootsaroundtheworld.info/assets/Vera%20Bila.jpg[/QUOTE]
Ahhh I see you hunted for the elusive large gypsy photo...don't see anything that says she is Roma or Gypsy...however if they are not alluring and beautiful how do you think they get you aff your guard so easy as to have theur partner pick your pocket and steal stores blind, I wouldn't waste my time watching an ugly old bat dance so I could lose my money and such.........gee even some American Indian, mexican and women of all cultures get wide in mid life and later......
As with all cultures some are and some aren't.....same with intelligence as is eveident with some of the comments I have seen on this subject........
Dobry den.

t\/\/4tf4(3
18-04-05, 09:00 PM
[QUOTE=butthead]The problem lies in Roma parents that refuse to help their kids learn.[/QUOTE]

Thats not THE problem but A problem. Many Roma parents were failed by the education system and so are
not able to help their children, rather than refusing to do so.
The Roma want to be included in Czech society they have been (http://www.eu-romani.org/comm24.htm) and are petitioning the EU (http://www.radio.cz/en/article/64038) to get a better deal.
Simply put, effort is required on both sides
and tangable positive results are required to see the start of a resolution to this problem.

franky
18-04-05, 09:21 PM
[QUOTE=butthead]What school taught you about WW2?[/QUOTE]

no school taught me WW2. I was a participant.

Aquarius
18-04-05, 09:26 PM
On your profile it says you were born in 1974. Is that a mistake?

pavelpavel
18-04-05, 10:40 PM
[QUOTE=ARTSCOTT]Ahhh I see you hunted for the elusive large gypsy photo...don't see anything that says she is Roma or Gypsy[/QUOTE]

That's Vera Bila.

I'm sure that you can figure out who she is on your own.

Label your own photos.

ARTSCOTT
19-04-05, 08:00 AM
DEFINITELY A PHOTO OF OVER INDULGENCE........
2 pages worth reading:
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/roma-education.htm

http://www.llewellynjournal.com/article/301

Dobry vecher.

Footbiscuit
19-04-05, 10:18 AM
I'm more concerned about what you believe than your persona.

queendagmar
19-04-05, 12:15 PM
yes Vera Bila is probably not the best example regarding the looks, but how old is she now? About 50 I guess. For that you would have to compare her with other women in that age.
Though she is a respected musician. Gypsies are actually very good musicians, just think about Iva Bittova and Ida Kelarova, both very respected here.

Kids who can not keep up with the rest of the class should be put in special schools, no matter if they are gypsies or not. Do not confuse special schools for mentally handicaped schools. The only difference is that kids in those schools get more attention, and there are less students per class, so they get individual care. At least from what I understood.
They have always a chance to continue their studies on secondary schools and further. According to me its better if they have chance to learn slower and reach the same results anyway rather than stay in a class where they do not succeed and repeat the same class couple of times. /we had some of them in our class, not gypsies btw./

http://www.cd.cz/static/old/NEW/TCD2005/5_7miss.htm
for fairer comparisson :)

pavelpavel
19-04-05, 12:31 PM
[QUOTE=queendagmar]yes Vera Bila is probably not the best example regarding the looks, but how old is she now? About 50 I guess. For that you would have to compare her with other women in that age.
[/QUOTE]

Sure. Rene Russo was born within a year of Vera Bila.

http://images.hollywood.com/images/large/l_1106445.jpg

Hmmm... tough call, but going to side with Ms. Russo on this one...

queendagmar
19-04-05, 12:35 PM
well you are right. But lets be fair there are good looking, average and less good looking people everywhere. :)

princeowales
19-04-05, 03:21 PM
[QUOTE=butthead]Quit putting words into my posts that aren't there.
I have taught in schools where some children were put in special schools because they belonged in special schools.
You're saying gypsies shouldn't be put in special schools wether they belong there or not.
You arte misreading my posts and adding things to them that aren't there.
please refrain from calling me a bigot until you can back it up. I can back up calling you several names, but I don't wish to be banned.[/QUOTE]

Those quotes from your posts were cut and pasted directly from your posts, so there is no misquoting here. If you misspoke yourself, just say so, there's no problem with that, but those are direct quotes from you.

My issue is not whether a "Gypsy" child might belong in a special class, it is that he/she doesn't belong there just because he/she is a "Gypsy".

t\/\/4tf4(3
19-04-05, 06:10 PM
[QUOTE=queendagmar] Do not confuse special schools for mentally handicaped schools. [/QUOTE]

Is that really true? I didn't find any reference to a special school being good yet. I found many reports that employers look down on a special school education. Here's what the US Department of State (http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/1999/325.htm) had to say about them:-

"Romani children often are relegated to "special schools" for the mentally disabled and socially maladjusted"

That along with a report from the Czech Helsinki Committee (http://www.minelres.lv/reports/czech/NGO/czech_NGO.htm) are from 1999 Have special schools changed or were they badly labelled back then? I found another atricle that indicates installation of Roma assistant Teachers (http://www.fifoost.org/tschechien/EU_czech_2002/node24.php) has provided encouraging results though the state support for such schemes is limited.

queendagmar
19-04-05, 07:14 PM
Kids who need to be put to these schools should be put there. As I told you what is better to repeat a class x number of times or go to a special school and take things slower? Regardless whether its a gypsie or not.
There are different types of special schools according to whether the kids are mentally handicapped or have difficulty with learning and other criterias.
Anyway whether the gypsy kids are put to these schools eventhough they should not, would be pure discrimination.
Maybe some of them do not speak Czech and can not follow the standard education. How is it then BH?

t\/\/4tf4(3
19-04-05, 11:42 PM
[QUOTE=queendagmar]There are different types of special schools according to whether the kids are mentally handicapped or have difficulty with learning and other criterias.
Anyway whether the gypsy kids are put to these schools eventhough they should not, would be pure discrimination.
Maybe some of them do not speak Czech and can not follow the standard education. How is it then BH?[/QUOTE]

But the majority of Roma children speak czech very well and according to this (http://www.romaniworld.com/edurprt-1.htm) report in some rural areas 98% of children are Roma in special schools. Do you know a government website that classifies the types of special school, I've had a look around and I cannot find anything so far.

Myrtille
20-04-05, 01:49 AM
Regarding the special schools. Some of you mentioned that Czech and Roma people have different culture ... which is true... and I think that is where it all starts.

The Czech children (at least from what I remember) were able to sit and listen for few hours during the class without actually interrupting the teacher. The Roma children just could not do it/ sit still/ keep quiet. And I do not say that is wrong... that is just the way they are... a cultural difference.

So putting the Roma children (to whom the regular system did not suit) to a special school was mainly to ensure they will be educated the way it suits them and the way which would succeed with their education. Another reason was that if there were some children disturbing in the class, the rest of the class could hardly focus on their studies. (And I know it from my own experience!).

It might sound harsh, but if you think it over, it makes sense.

princeowales
20-04-05, 02:32 AM
[QUOTE=Myrtille]
The Czech children (at least from what I remember) were able to sit and listen for few hours during the class without actually interrupting the teacher. The Roma children just could not do it/ sit still/ keep quiet. [/QUOTE]

Are you saying that NO Czech child ever interrupted the teacher and that NO Roma child was ever able to sit and listen for a few hours?

princeowales
20-04-05, 03:30 AM
worth reading:
http://www.praguepost.com/P03/2005/Art/0224/service.php

ARTSCOTT
20-04-05, 07:38 AM
That is great that the govt. is doing this with higher education....however....from what I rad on here the real problem is getting the "grade school, middle school and high school" kids ready for the higher education.

I went to middle school and high school in an area of the US that was very under educated. By that I mean that the norm was to reach the 8th grade or turn 16, then quit school, work with the rest of the family in the logging business, sell moonshine and collect welfare all at the same time. I witnessed first hand parents that would not, could not help their children get an education.....I heard the parents tell the "new" teachers...Its not up to me to educate my kid...it's up to you, its your job...they don't need no damn education to work in them woods and get welfare. The county I lived in from 1968 to 1974 was the 2nd poorest in the nation and about the same in the lest educated...and I saw teachers that would come into the area pumped and ready to churn out more teachers and scientist and so on get depressed and wind up in a couple of years just drawing their pay and no longer teaching....I borrowed books from my high school and took them to a professor I knew and checked the contents against 8th grade books of the exact same subject and the state book depository was rebinding 8th grade books and sending them into the backwoods area I was in......
But if the teachers are truly teachers they can motivate their students to WANT to learn and in the process those children may instill in their backwards old fashioned parents a desire to learn also.....I saw a man in his late 30's come back to school and sit in the same room as his 13 yr old daughter and then graduate at the same time as her and I....then I ran like hell to get out of those hills and try to live in a society that was not in beastiality and incest and marrying their sisters and so on.....
I read frustration in some posts and other posts I read teachers are only here to make a living and don't care...why should I the parents don't....that makes the student not the failure but the teacher...
We can all sit around and slam one culture about its short commings but why not ask that child (who is the next generation coming up) to stay after school for some extra free tutoring.......
Making education fun and also makes it contagious.....use those things you enjoy doing as tools to inspire the Roma children to want to learn...and no I am not talking about the drinking beer...is the norm still 160 litres a year or has that changed since 2003....any way I think you understand what I mean....Inspire..Inspire...Inspire.

Dobrou nocs.

Next
20-04-05, 10:46 AM
[QUOTE=butthead] ....
First day of the new year. All students are eager to go. One student isn't able to handle it. He has never been to kindergarden or any type of preschool. When asked about colors he has no concept of the word. You see, his parents never bothered to explain there were such things as colors or numbers.
Dilema:
Do you A; give this kid lots of special attention that he needs, while negelecting the rest of the class?
or B
send him to a special school.

But good news! In the rural environments schools are fighting so hard to stay open, (they recieve money per student) that they aren't sending any kids to special schools for fear of having their own schools closed down due to lack of students.[/QUOTE]

So from the above, I guess if they are lucky, then it is option A with a whole class who turn into undereducated early school leavers with reduced outcomes for the future. :(

Myrtille
20-04-05, 12:17 PM
Princeowales, you took it all wrong. (thank you Butthead) I just pointed out that culturally and the way Roma children are brought up is... to run around, play, be noisy, they don´t really have any control. I DONT SAY IT IS WRONG that is just the way the Roma people are used to live and that suits them (I try to see it from the cultural relativism point :)). And that means the Roma children find it much harder to actually keep still at school when they are just not used to it. (Don´t forget that Czech children usually go to kindergarten before school... I am not sure but I think I have never met a Roma child in kindergarten... meaning already kindergarten makes the Czech children ready for school... while Roma children are running around till they get to the age of 6 - again, nothing wrong with that. I hated to get up to go to kindergarten :)).

Moreover there are even Czech children in the special schools, because some have the same problem as Roma children, or the Czech children are simply dumb. Noone said there are only Roma children there. But yes, mainly they are... and one of the reason is the one I have mentioned above.

My auntie is also a teacher at basic school (and from what she tells us, yes God help her). I sincerely admire her, cause she is able to make the children listen and respect her. But imagine how it is for the teacher to have class of 11 year old kids together with one to two 16 year old guys... (the special school was closed in their city). It is not easy and the old kids just feel like undermining the teacher´s respect while talking back at him/her etc. ... and the way the laws are set now, the teacher just simply has no way to put them in the line and that means the rest of the kids get wrong example and think they can do the same ... to show up, be noisy, interrupt or worse...

I do not know where you went to school... but our schools were set differently. We weren´t used to speaking up without being asked to. Of course there were few who kept talking or would interrupt... but there are different ways of interrupting! :)

Myrtille
20-04-05, 12:26 PM
Oh, and to answer your question :)... I ment most of Czech children and most of Roma children... :)

princeowales
20-04-05, 04:57 PM
[QUOTE=butthead]quit flinging c**** around. She did not say all, that's your special trick of adding words to peoples posts.[/QUOTE]

ButtHead, how is it that you teach English, with this remarkable inability to read it? She said, and this is a direct quote, "THE Czech children..." and "THE Roma
children...", [emphasis mine], when what she meant to say was "MOST" (her words. When I raised the question, she was aware of the difference, as you do not seem to be). If you understood the English language, you would have known that when I said, "do you mean that NO Czech child...", that was a question, not a statement. If you understood the English language, you would understand that the article, "THE", is an inclusive article in the same way "ALL" is.

If you had bothered (or been able) to read all this thread, you would know my point all along has been that this 'allness' model is a major part of the problem. At no time have I said that NO Roma child belonged in special school. I just refuse to expand, as so many have on this thread, from the individual (or even the large number) to the entire Roma nation.

And Myrtille: no, I didn't misunderstand you, nor do I disagree with your basic point, only with your choice of allness terms.

Even if it is only done in small ways, such as saying "THE" when we really mean "SOME", or even "MOST", how we speak not only reflects how we think, it also informs and reinforces how we, and others who might respect what we say, think. The more often we use allness terms, the more likely we are to think in allness models, and down that road lies prejudice and bigotry.

Ledni Tonda
20-04-05, 05:28 PM
Well, I have to support Butthead and others on this one. I cannot imagine that anybody thinks that Butthead and others mean that, for example, every single Roma child is restless at school. We all (including you, I am sure) expect there are exceptions. Rather, they are saying that restlessness at school is a common trait of Roma children.

So, what you are calling "allness" is what some (sensitive) folks call "stereotyping" (this has somehow become a negative word), and it is simply a way of describing a group based on common traits.

If I say "cats have tails" it doesn't mean that there cannot any cats without a tail. It means tails are a trait of cats - but some miss that trait.

Likewise, "I like drinking beer" does not mean there is not any beer I dislike. It means that generally I like beer, but there may be some exceptions I don't like.

It seems that "Allness" as you refer to it is pretty pragmatic in these situations.

t\/\/4tf4(3
20-04-05, 08:59 PM
[QUOTE=butthead] I no longer teach in basic schools. God help those that do! [/QUOTE]

Respect to you and all other teachers. I dread the thought of teaching especially to a group of free spirits with no interest in the material they are forced learn.

In England it is not uncommon to hear of children carrying knives at school; I've heard that in America it's not uncommon for them to carry guns. These problems in my country (UK) are not attributed to any single ethnicity . Some children do well in schools and some do not. There is no segregation of Afro-Caribbean, Asian or "white"; If the state attempted such a scheme there would be TROUBLE
(much of it generated by the teachers).

So why is it acceptable to state that Roma children here should be segregated. Studies of the education system here have indicated that the it should become somewhat more flexible and adapt to the differences exibited by the Roma without seperating them from the main stream. Those reports also indicate that segregation is leading to social problems (lack of education, low wages, unemployment, state dependancy and crime) which everyone has to deal with.

All those who have spent many years here and taught may find me naive but I am surpised so see a bunch of non natives accept an immidiate emphasis on the faults of the Roma when discussing "the problem". While at the same time a hint of criticism of the education policy or "bad" teachers can "reasonably" invite a tirade. In that sense I think wingnut is right to place emphasis on the faults of the "other side"

[QUOTE=wingnut]Are you saying that NO Czech child ever interrupted the teacher and that NO Roma child was ever able to sit and listen for a few hours?[/QUOTE]

it is no more extreme than saying.

"The problem lies in Roma parents that refuse to help their kids learn."

When I look at the material that the Roma have organised they are investigating how special schools are funded. They seem to think that 90% of the money allocated to special schools cannot be accounted for. They state that 2.5% of all children can be expected to be mentally disabled but that 40-50% of their children are being placed into special education ... more so in rural areas. The cases I see them making are not consistant with a that of a group who have no interest in the education/integration of their children in this society.

princeowales
20-04-05, 11:57 PM
[QUOTE=Lendi Tonda]So, what you are calling "allness" is what some (sensitive) folks call "stereotyping" (this has somehow become a negative word), and it is simply a way of describing a group based on common traits.

If I say "cats have tails" it doesn't mean that there cannot any cats without a tail. It means tails are a trait of cats - but some miss that trait.[/QUOTE]

There is a very good reason stereotyping has become a negative word. Here are some common stereotypes: Jews are clannish and greedy; Negroes are shiftless and irresponsible; Mexicans are lazy and dirty; Muslims are religious fanatics; Roma steal and cheat, and their children are restless and fidgity. All of these might be true in part, but over the years, because of stereotyping, many people have come to view these stereotypes as the reality of each of these groups.

As with your example of cats, it is just plain inaccurate to say that "cats have tails". THEY don't, some do.

The following is from "The Holocaust: A Teacher's Guide", Copyright 1990 Gary M. Grobman.

1. Stereotyping often results from, and leads to, prejudice and bigotry.

2. Unchecked prejudice and bigotry leads to discrimination, violence, and, in extreme cases, genocide.

3. Prejudice can be spread by the use of propaganda and inflamed by demagogues.

4. Language, particularly slang, is often used to dehumanize members of certain groups of people, and this dehumanization is a precursor of discrimination, isolation, and violence.

CHAPTER CONTENT


The purpose of this chapter is to teach that the genocide we know as the Holocaust had roots in attitudes and behavior which we see around us every day. It is only when these attitudes and behaviors are manifested in the extreme that genocide can occur. Genocide is the last step in a continuum of actions taken by those who are prejudiced. The first step of this continuum is discrimination and treating certain groups of people differently. The second step is isolation, such as the physical segregation of minorities in ghettos or setting up separate schools. The third step is persecution, followed by dehumanization and violence. Genocide: the deliberate and systematic extermination of a group of people is the ultimate expression of human hatred.

Stereotypes

A "stereotype" is a generalization about a person or group of persons. We develop stereotypes when we are unable or unwilling to obtain all of the information we would need to make fair judgments about people or situations. In the absence of the "total picture," stereotypes in many cases allow us to "fill in the blanks." Our society often innocently creates and perpetuates stereotypes, but these stereotypes often lead to unfair discrimination and persecution when the stereotype is unfavorable. A "stereotype" is a generalization about a person or group of persons. We develop stereotypes when we are unable or unwilling to obtain all of the information we would need to make fair judgments about people or situations. In the absence of the "total picture," stereotypes in many cases allow us to "fill in the blanks." Our society often innocently creates and perpetuates stereotypes, but these stereotypes often lead to unfair discrimination and persecution when the stereotype is unfavorable.

For example, if we are walking through a park late at night and encounter three senior citizens wearing fur coats and walking with canes, we may not feel as threatened as if we were met by three high school-aged boys wearing leather jackets. Why is this so? We have made a generalization in each case. These generalizations have their roots in experiences we have had ourselves, read about in books and magazines, seen in movies or television, or have had related to us by friends and family. In many cases, these stereotypical generalizations are reasonably accurate. Yet, in virtually every case, we are resorting to prejudice by ascribing characteristics about a person based on a stereotype, without knowledge of the total facts. By stereotyping, we assume that a person or group has certain characteristics. Quite often, we have stereotypes about persons who are members of groups with which we have not had firsthand contact.

Myrtille
21-04-05, 02:06 AM
I have been talking to heaps of people about Romas and we agree on pretty much everything. Yes, we might live in stereotypes, we might be prejudiced... BUT all the people, relatives, I know would never talk bad to Roma, would never insult them, would never hit them or hurt them... we would not notice them at all (as we do not notice all the other people... lets say in the transport). And we expect the same from Romas... And soon as I meet Roma that behaves properly according to my values (meaning, he will not shout at me or insult me, steal from me, attack me or sth... that is the culture I live in and if people live in Czech R. they should try to adapt in some ways) I will behave nicely towards him/her as I do towards all the other people. But make sure I have the same common stand towards everyone else - other Czechs or foreigners - and I would doom them for inappropriate behavior the same way as I would doom Romas ... I do not distinguish between the races... I just judge according to what I find suitable and I expect people to treat me nice as I treat them. And I am quite sure this stand has MOST of Czech people.

BUT as soon as I encounter sth that I disagree with, I will be judging them! I refuse accept them speaking rudely to me or calling me names, just as they feel like it, I refuse watching them destroy things around me in public transport, I refuse being robbed and will warn others if I see Roma stealing... And YES, I have been witness to all of this. (Please, take “them” as those who were present at that situation! :)) And since there are only 5% of Romas out of the whole Czech population (someone stated it in expats) then I assume it quite strange to be able to encounter with this wrong behavior within the minority, since in a way there is so few of Romas comparing to 95% of Czechs (most of whom never do things like that, at least I have not seen many, though have witnessed quite few Roma do so).

I also think that since everyone makes so much fuss with Romas now ... "we should be good to them"... "we should not discriminate them"... that people just get annoyed! If the majority of Romas behaved acceptably, NOONE would mind them... Czechs are too lazy and indifferent to care about others (including themselves).

princeowales
21-04-05, 05:06 AM
[QUOTE=Myrtille]And since there are only 5% of Romas out of the whole Czech population (someone stated it in expats) then I assume it quite strange to be able to encounter with this wrong behavior within the minority, since in a way there is so few of Romas comparing to 95% of Czechs (most of whom never do things like that, at least I have not seen many, though have witnessed quite few Roma do so).[/QUOTE]

Yes, I, too, have observed some reprehensible behavior among Roma, perhaps even among a significant number of Roma. But I haven't encountered most Roma, nor, I would suggest, have you.

It's tempting to take your statistics of 5% Roma and use them to point out that, of a population of 10,246,000 in the Czech Republic, you're talking about encountering over 500,000 Roma which is, of course, highly unlikely.

However, according to the CIA factbook, revised Feb. 2005 (hopefully it is a bit more accurate than their Iraqi intelligence), Roma make up only .3% of the Czech population, so you would only have to encounter 31,000 Roma to be able to make any kind of valid sweeping statement that THEY behave in a particular way. Is this close to the number of Roma you have seen behaving badly?

ARTSCOTT
21-04-05, 05:42 AM
[QUOTE=butthead]Artscott noble emotions, very noble. May i ask what you do for a living?
[/QUOTE]
BUTTHEAD....SURE I"ll tell what I do.........

At Wichita State University, I am the Performance Facilities Manager In the College of Fine Arts School of Music...along with managing up to 30 student employees (right now I have students working from Panama, Sri Lanka, northen, middle and southern India,Czech Republic and Lativa...The Czech is back in Prague at University..Kansas was toooo flat for her also hardly any snow and she missed skiing) I also Stage Manage, House Manage, and I am the Master Carpenter and Flyman on the performances.....large performances (operas and dance concerts), I will be found working as Master Carpenter and Flyman during the performance....and also as the repair man betwixt shows. Smaller performances (recital and small concerts), I can be found doing whatever need to done to have a successful performance. I also run sound and lights for various events on campus (if I cannot schedule a student to do it :o...just kidding there are enough gigs to keep us all busy)
I am also a photographer and a Reiki Master Teacher.


In the 7th thru 9th grades, I was told to tutor the "special classes" at my school....these were children from K - 6 grade...as I went thru the first12 weeks of school with out books and still passed all tests with nothing less than a B+.....these were kids that could not write, count to 10 and had been classified as completely stupid and retarded by family, friend and the school....The hills of north central Arkansas are very beautiful but the lifestyle of those people at that time I could not take and begged my dad to move us out of there...I lost that argument...Father knows best... :o He later apologized for making me stay in an education deficient area....any way back to tutoring.....In one year those kids were reading and counting 1 grade level behind their fellow classmates.....these kids could have easily fit the descriptions of the Roma's being discussed here....and I am coming to teach english in the CR god help those kids and me....Oh Great Mother protect my sanity as I remember the havoc I put my teachers thru...those good christians did not understand my pagan thoughts....oh that may be another thread...

Now I spend my time with the international students that work for me and also do work for the various int'l student organizarions with their celebrations...and helping them with language problems.....

Anything else you would like to know Butthead just ask....or any one else....


Dobrou nocs.

ARTSCOTT
21-04-05, 06:08 AM
[QUOTE=princeowales]

However, according to the CIA factbook, revised Feb. 2005 (hopefully it is a bit more accurate than their Iraqi intelligence).[/QUOTE]

CIA is a bigger oxymoron than Military Intellegence...com'on you can't trust any more than their leader... :o

I do not remember the Cia Facts I printed off prior to my 2003 visit to the CR....how ever the friend I was visiting went thru them with me and said way over 90% was incorrect to her knowledge and her mothers knowledge.

I walked all around Prague at night alone with cameras hanging of my neck and carring tripods with billfold hanging out of pocket and never evn once got bumped, pushed or spoke to in a mean tone...I would ride the Subway just to see the subculture nite life....maybe looking like a truly bad tourist no one wanted my nikon or kiev cameras or that black wallet dangling from my back pocket....but i amde thru several parks even venture into the parks along the river where there was absolutely no light to see the side walk by....everyone just nodded as I passed...no one even followed me.
Before you ask my friend was asleep as she is a crosscountry runner and always turns in by 9PM or 10pm...Has to have 8 hours of sleep a day or can't motivate...but she would call me to see what i was doing just before she went to bed....and i would have to be ready for the next days journey bt 8:30 am when she was finished with her morning runs and then to the bus or train to head off for another competition.....

Maybe i was just lucky, or the Great Mother was keeping me safe....don't know.....

Dobrou nocs.

Aquarius
21-04-05, 09:21 AM
Are you saying that ALL PC crusaders are trying to change the language in order the change the way we think, butthead? Isn't it more accurate to say that "some" or even "most in my experience which is rather limited and unscientific seeing as how I haven't talked to every single PC crusader(self-styled or otherwise) who speaks my native tongue, which is called, though it might indeed be somewhat of a misnomer, 'English'?"

Myrtille
21-04-05, 10:31 AM
Hi there again :).
princeowales, thank you for pointing out the more correct number of Roma in Czech... since there are much less of them than I thought (I was too sleepy to bother visiting cia.gov) you are even making my point much more crucial and clearer.

I never said all of the Roma steal. :)
But I said if there are so few of them, only 31 000, HOW COME we get to see them steal (SOME of them :))? Don´t you think it would be more likely to see Czech steal since there are pretty much 100% more of them? That is my point. From this I assume that if I have seen Roma steal for few times already, there must be much higher number thieves among them than among Czechs. That was the idea of the previous message.

And Artscott, I never said Czech republic is not safe, or Prague, on that point, but that does not mean there are no pickpockets. It is enough to visit the police station down at mustek, where you have lines of people standing saying they were robbed (had walk there few tourists myself). And there are known "Roma gangs" in these areas (and I have seen them) that rob tourists.

Moreover, of course, you do not get robbed when you walk in a park. How big probability do you think there is, that someone (pickpocket) might be waiting there... when you have huge crowds of tourists around Mustek where you can steal much easier and of course there are lots of drunk people who are easily robbed during the night? :)

But still, comparing to the times before the borders opened the Czech r. was 100s time safer than it is now. There were few pickpockets then, since the amount of money Czechs were having were hardly sth to be stolen.:) So of course with all the tourists coming now and the big opportunities the wallets bring, this new “business” :) is blossoming. It´s faster and more profitable than social benefits. (I am a student, maybe I could get hired for a summer job with them :o)

queendagmar
21-04-05, 12:57 PM
well I guess the truth is somewhere in the middle. That most Czech do not hold friendly feelings toward romas is a fact. Lots of them had negative experience with them as well. But most of them would also never involve in a conflict with them. If I see a group of gypsies in a tram or subway then I rather move further and make sure my wallet is still there. That is an instinct.
Not all gypsies steal of course and I admit that once you are born as a gypsie, you might have it already harder in certain ways. On the other side all this talk about discrimination and racism and blaming all problems only on one side is hypocritical. I am still waiting for gypsies to look self critically and objectively at the whole issue, without using the word discrimination in every sentence and admit that it takes two. I am sure there are some of them who are able to see the problem in more complex view.
Regarding the special schools, not all roma kids talk such a good Czech, some of them do not know many words. Anyway maybe the solution would be to arrange pre-school preparation classes which would prepare kids for the first years of schools. This is not just a mistake of the state, some parents do not see the necesity of it. Some parents are just plain lazy and do not care and do not see the education as being important.
Stop blaming everything on one side, parents are as responsible. If a kid is not visiting school or if they see that their kid has problems with learning, they should try to help and support him. It should be one of their highest interest.

stigmata
21-04-05, 05:45 PM
Why can't they just put all the unruly children on ritalin? That's what they do in the states.

No segregation, just brain modulation.

ARTSCOTT
21-04-05, 07:30 PM
And Artscott, I never said Czech republic is not safe, or Prague, on that point, but that does not mean there are no pickpockets. It is enough to visit the police station down at mustek, where you have lines of people standing saying they were robbed (had walk there few tourists myself). And there are known "Roma gangs" in these areas (and I have seen them) that rob tourists.
Myrtille

I am sorry that I insinuated that you said the CR is not safe......If I had the exact CIA report page I read prior to coming to the CR it said that...however no mention of the Roma's.....the parks at 2 or 3 AM are not a place to be here in little ol' middle of no where Wichita Ks...I won't walk thru this town after dark due to the gang activity (white, hispanic, asian and black)...I did my night travels on foot thru the parks and subways....and maybe it was because I was actually looking for the criminal activity that I did not find it or maybe it was as I stated earlier the Great Mother was watching out for me....If I had done my walking after spending an evening drinking at U Komtra then I would have probably found myself waking up in the gutter some where missing everything...but I was fully alert and aware of my surroundings....even as i would stop to photograph night scenes through out the city......

QUEENDAGMAR - Not all gypsies steal of course and I admit that once you are born as a gypsie, you might have it already harder in certain ways. On the other side all this talk about discrimination and racism and blaming all problems only on one side is hypocritical. I am still waiting for gypsies to look self critically and objectively at the whole issue, without using the word discrimination in every sentence and admit that it takes two.

This has been a prob in the US for as long as I can remember with the various races towards the white popualtion.... and I presume the Romas watch TV and get to see american shows (Pacific Blue was being aired when I was there and I saw a couple of episodes dealing with racism and descimination), so if it seems to work in the US maybe it will work for us....but it doesn't work..........What need to happen is the Romas need to get organized and then start meeting with govt officials to get what they need...have their leaders lobby for what is needed for their people(I presume they still live in a tribal community with leaders and kings etc, they do even here in Wichita)....but as long as they keep pointing a finger and saying it is all your fault not ours then the problem will always exist (I may have had pity for the Roma as a whole a hundred years ago or more but not now, they have the ability to say we have been run out of our own country because our culture was different now is the time for us to intergrate our culture with theirs (theirs being where they currently live) and find a peaceful way to co-habitate, even if it means giving up the open and blantant custome of stealing that brings honor to us. There are the ones who have gone on to finish college, beome authors, singers and so on....stop the stealing and get back into that colorful lifestye of fortune telling, street performing (dancing, snake charming etc) and make an "honest living" from our cultural past[but that is WORK, and I have been told by Gypsies here "easier to steal than work, brings honor among gypsies"..I don't agree with that line of thinking however I don't agree with our govts line of thinking that the whole world should live as we (the govt) want them to...not good trying to "BIG BROTHER" everyone....one day someone with a large boot will place it in B***'s A**......I have lost jobs because i have stood up for minorities here in wichita.....

Stigmata.....
really now do you want the consequences of the side effects of ritalin on your hands....and look at what ritalin has done for the good ole USA....made it even more screwed up.......drugs for control should only be a very last possibility.......
No segeration just brain modulation is a great motto.....I like it...may have to have a bumper sticker made with it on it.

Dobry den.

princeowales
21-04-05, 07:47 PM
[QUOTE=butthead]Another PCcrusader come along to change the language in order to change the way we think.
The only difference between you and Hitler and Goebbels and Big Brother is that you're convinced you're on the right side. Wait aminute! So were they.[/QUOTE]

Basically, Butthead, you're an aptly named horse's ass. Current thinking has led to racism, bigotry and prejudice and current language reflects that. Yes, it is time to change how we speak about "THEM", whoever 'them' might be, in the vague and distant hope that somehow, someway we might just change how we think about 'them'.

t\/\/4tf4(3
21-04-05, 08:11 PM
[QUOTE=butthead]Exactly, sources. Do you have a neuteral source, say UN or something?[/QUOTE]

I expected that. I don't want to cause a "credibility" fork in this thread but I'll note now that one television report with an aparantly unreasonable mother is not a exactly empirical.

In the link I posted (http://www.romaniworld.com/edurprt-1.htm) before is the following:-

On most occasions officials refused to discuss the topic usually on the basis that it was not their area of responsibility; this even included education and
financial officials. Several even claimed that they could not show such information under the legal requirements of "data protection".

If you manage to find the document (ECRE(2003) 002) to which that webpage refers please let me know , I tried. ECRE states its credentials on this web page http://www.eu-romani.org/legal.htm

If you want you could try getting relevant statistical information from the czech statistical office (http://www.czso.cz/eng/edicniplan.nsf/o/10n1-03-2003-education___methodology)

To check the credibility of the links I have posted I have looked at several organisations:-

www.helcom.cz (http://www.minelres.lv/reports/czech/NGO/czech_NGO.htm)
www.ihf-hr.org (http://www.ihf-hr.org)
www.osce.org (http://www.osce.org/documents/html/pdftohtml/1562_en.pdf.html)

My point is really that if you have the will to investigate the other side of the argument you might find some of the points made are convincing.

princeowales
21-04-05, 08:27 PM
[QUOTE=Myrtille]I never said all of the Roma steal. :)
But I said if there are so few of them, only 31 000, HOW COME we get to see them steal (SOME of them :))? Don´t you think it would be more likely to see Czech steal since there are pretty much 100% more of them? That is my point. From this I assume that if I have seen Roma steal for few times already, there must be much higher number thieves among them than among Czechs. That was the idea of the previous message.[/QUOTE]

It may be as simple as the ones you see are more visible, more distinguishable (after all, THEY don't look at all like us, do they?). It may also be that the most public face of the Roma are the thieves. I have never maintained that Roma's don't steal; many of them steal, maybe even most of them. My brief has been from the very beginning: don't paint them all with that one brush.

There is a whole body of Roma out there who live quietly in whatever village they have been allowed to live (meaning that the local hooligans or skinheads haven't burned them out, not infrequently with the help of the local police), work to get their children educated so that, hopefully, their children will have a better life than they do, but because of the stereotyping, because of the way so many of us see the Roma, even these educated children will probably not get jobs in the white sector of society.

As far as Czechs stealing, I imagine almost anyone who has lived in Prague for any length of time has been robbed by a Czech. Even the mayor of Prague was ripped off by a Czech taxi driver a couple of months back (there was an article in virtually every newspaper in town about that).

Have you ever had to pay a "surcharge" (bribe) to an official to get some papers processed within your lifetime (this BB is filled with complaints of that type)? I'll bet he/she was Czech. Ever been overcharged at a bar or restaurace? I'll bet they were Czech. Been ripped off on a lease? Pay higher prices because someone in the store is pilfering the petty cash, or taking home the printer supplies from the office? Perhaps, even, it's your office. I'll bet they're Czech.

That's theft, my friend, just as much as grabbing your bag on the tram or picking your pocket. I would be willing to bet that you have had more of these kinds of encounters than you have had being robbed by a Roma on the street.

maxd
21-04-05, 10:41 PM
You guys still at it? Put this one to rest. Roma steal, Czech's steal. Romas proportionally steal more, especially the sods at the end of Zubateho. We now know that they steal due to their culture and forced economic situation. It is a catch 22. You offer more help they will abuse it. You do not offer help they will carry on stealing. The whole thing about the law is enforcing it. People who steal Czech or Roma should be thrown in jail. That is the only fair way to deal with the situation.

Myrtille
21-04-05, 11:55 PM
Artscott, yes gypsies do have kings here, but you would not really encounter with gypsies living in sheds and having these little settlements in Czech ... you would find this in North-Eastern and Eastern Slovakia.

Have you ever, princeowales, gotten to see how an apartment block looks like after few months of gypsies living there? (I think you mentioned that you were dealing with this topic quite a lot in different countries). And since many times gypsies just refuse to pay rent, no wonder they are moved away. We had gypsies living upstairs from us. 11 children, several dogs, hens in the bathtub, sometimes urine coming through the ceiling to our flat, no knowledge of what toilet is used for (the windows worked fine), mattresses used for sleeping and peeing, why not... smell... and that all fitted within 3+1 apartment. And that was only ONE family in 13th store apartment block. (Using lift was sometimes unbearable without oxygen mask... ). And honestly, living in our flat was sometimes unbearable too. (Fortunately after 1989 the administration noticed that they are not paying the rent and after 8 more years of not paying the rent they were moved out.)

The apartment blocks after only a year of gypsies living there were totally stripped off any equipment that the flats came with (oven, heaters... ), the windows were all out... the bonfire worked well enough in cold weather (I guess the windows worked fine as feed for the fire). That is quite an impressive way of life, isn’t it? :)

And as I said, princeowales, if I meet nice clean gypsie person, I have no problems with supporting him/her if needed. Unfortunately I was not yet lucky to meet such person. I really hate rude and aggressive people (of any race) so that is why I have problems with gypsies. The thing is that if the gypsy is according to “Czech standard” – behavior, clothes, education (please, don´t take me by the word here, cause I don’t know how else to express it) I most likely don’t even notice him/her when passing by!! cause he/she is like me. But yes, I do notice, the loud and aggressive ones. And yes, I do get out of their way out or instinct.

And now to your comment on Czechs stealing. Hmm, :) naive me... I have never paid a bribe, I probably would never recognize when being asked for one... and I have such innocent face I guess :) that I never had problem with any authorities... nowhere... and I have been around quite a lot and as I worked for one organization that was dealing with getting internships for foreigners, I have vast experience in dealing with different administration offices/authorities. And I always managed to have everything on time (sometimes even faster).

But I do agree with you about Czechs asking for bribes (at least I have heard about it), taking things home from work (I don’t do it, … I should :)). I have not been overcharged yet cause I am Czech, I presume (but yes, I have heard of it too). … So altogether, I fully agree with you… I always hated the Czech way of selfishness and looking after their sole interests. Stealing from me is bad, but stealing from the company or state is fine. BUT :)… as was mentioned … gypsies do not get often the opportunity to work for state administration (if ever)… so they cannot take bribes, … they do not really get employed at private companies, so they cannot really take company supplies home :). BUT I bet at least some of them would do it too, as some Czechs do (and there is the example of the gypsy news moderator who got sacked for the “stealing”). So in a way the gypsy and Czech can be equal here in these ways of stealing… so that leaves us with pickpockets, where gypsies play the league.

princeowales
22-04-05, 02:28 AM
[QUOTE=Myrtille]
Have you ever, princeowales, gotten to see how an apartment block looks like after few months of gypsies living there? (I think you mentioned that you were dealing with this topic quite a lot in different countries). [/QUOTE]

Yes, of course I have, frequently; less so in CR than in Russia, Romania and Bulgaria. Nonetheless, the situation is, as you describe, often deplorable.

Particularly this has been true of people whose cultural mode of existence has been dramatically changed, usually not by their own doing. In the case of the Roma, most of them have, by various national laws and regulations, been forced off the road and into "settled" existence with which, frequently, they are ill-equipped to deal. On the road, hygiene and living requirements are dramatically different than what is required in settled living.

What is important here, though, is to recognize that this is not limited to, nor unique among, Roma. It's not unlike what happens when we've taken street kids off the street to live in a shelter in Russia, or families out of the slums to live in housing projects in NY. They just don't bring with them the tools we require for this kind of life. But all you see is the end result, not the process which has led to it, and a very integral part of that process has been cultural, class and ethnic bias.

If you are interested enough to get another and very comprehensive view of this situation, I highly recommend you read "Bury Me Standing", by Isabel Fonseca.

t\/\/4tf4(3
22-04-05, 04:48 AM
Hello Myrtille, I haven't seen it myself but I have been told about very similar circumstances. There are a very high percentage of smelly tower block lifts in most big UK cities btw. It's not nice to be around! The bribe thing tripped a memory. My old boss got out of CZ before 1968. He told me about his dad driving an expensive (inside CZ) ..
The police stopped him and said "you were speeding, you will have to pay 100Kc fine". He said he was not speeding, to which the policeman replied "your headlight is broken that is another 100Kc fine", the policeman then took his stick and broke a headlight. So my mates dad said "Ok I get it, here's your money" and drove on.
I'm not trying to make anything of that at all it is just a funny memory, my boss was laughing when he told me about it. Plus being funny related to the premise of this thread

Footbiscuit
22-04-05, 09:20 AM
That's quite interesting, BH. Does calling somebody an idiot qualify as a banning offence as well or have you already removed that?

t\/\/4tf4(3
22-04-05, 09:45 AM
I never read that! Specifically horses arse?

don't steal from important people (http://blastradius.blogspot.com/2005/04/world-of-pain.html)

queendagmar
22-04-05, 12:52 PM
to princeofwales
You mentioned that some of the problems can be caused because they were forced to integrate and to change their way of life. I agree with that. But how does it work in countries where they were not forced to integrate and continued their way of living as used to.
I was naming Iva Bittova and Ida Kelarova who actually have gypsy origin but are respected musicians, Lucie Bila is one of the most popular singers here. Nobody really bothers with their origin then.

About overpricing in Czech. Well I got overpriced as well, together with my friends. And we are natives. Of course the barman appologized that it was a mistake, but double the price is quite a big mistake ;)
Next to it twe got cars stolen couple of times in the past, and also few breaking into our company. It is a lot of hassle to deal with it all the time. I dont think the crime will disappear totally but at least get reduced. You still get overpriced in touristic places allover the world.

queendagmar
22-04-05, 01:24 PM
This has been a prob in the US for as long as I can remember with the various races towards the white popualtion.... and I presume the Romas watch TV and get to see american shows (Pacific Blue was being aired when I was there and I saw a couple of episodes dealing with racism and descimination), so if it seems to work in the US maybe it will work for us....but it doesn't work..........What need to happen is the Romas need to get organized and then start meeting with govt officials to get what they need...have their leaders lobby for what is needed for their people(I presume they still live in a tribal community with leaders and kings etc, they do even here in Wichita)...
--------------------------------------------------------------
They do not usually live the same way here. That is perhaps because of the integration few decades ago. There are of course different groups.
I wonder how it would go if some of them got back to their traditional life. I have read somewhere that CR and Slovakia allows the nomadic way of life which was forbiden under socialism. Though would they voluntarily send their kids to school to get the education? Because without education there is nothing. They can always sing, perform, be forture tellers, but does not that move them on the edge of society instead of integrate? Next to it there are big differences among them. Again I think to show examples of the ones who have reached something in their life would be a good motivation. As for them as for the Czechs who would then see the other side of the story.
Interesting reading:
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,1475534,00.html

About pointing fingers, well I currently live in Holland and eventhough I still think that Dutch are relatively tolerant /except of some provincial people, but that you get everywhere../, and still there are quite some tensions between the natives and the immigrants /even the immigrants of 2nd generation for ex./ There is lots of finger pointing from both sides.

princeowales
22-04-05, 04:55 PM
[QUOTE=queendagmar]to princeofwales
You mentioned that some of the problems can be caused because they were forced to integrate and to change their way of life. I agree with that. But how does it work in countries where they were not forced to integrate and continued their way of living as used to. [/QUOTE]

With the (possible) exception of the US, I am unaware of any country which, within the past 25 years, has not passed laws forbidding the so-called caravanning of Roma, requiring them to "integrate into society." Even in the Czech Republic, those laws still exist, although I believe they are rarely enforced these days. However, the damage has been done already.

ARTSCOTT
24-04-05, 04:53 AM
Scholarships for Roma

By Irena Zemanova

Feb. 24, 2005


As a private institution of higher education whose mission is to help create an open and civil society in Central and Eastern Europe, The New Anglo-American College (Anglo-amercka vysoka skola, or AAVS) in Prague is offering a full-tuition scholarship to study politics and society or business administration to qualified and motivated Romany students from the Czech Republic beginning fall 2005.

The AAVS Roma Scholarship is now in its fourth year. Its aim is to increase opportunities for Roma in academic, political, and business institutions in the Czech Republic, to increase the representation of young Roma as an underrepresented ethnic minority in the local higher-education system, and to promote Roma integration into larger society, including the European Union.




This year, Gabriela Hrabanova will be the first Romany student to have completed her studies at AAVS, in politics and society, on the scholarship. Since taking AAVS's Intensive Academic English Program (IAEP), intended for prospective students not ready for full studies in English, back in fall 2001, Hrabanova is now director of Athinganoi, a Roma NGO that runs educational projects to help Romany students. Since 2003 she has been an E-rider, part of a bilingual team of information technology experts whose duty is to increase the information and communication capacity for Roma organizations.

http://www.praguepost.com/P03/2005/Art/0224/service.php

http://home.cogeco.ca/~rcctoronto/pages/romapages/FS7edu.html

ARTSCOTT
24-04-05, 04:57 AM
an excerpt on educating the Roma and its link.......


The Communist Assimilation Plans resulted in large numbers of Roma being brought into the urbanized areas where the children were sent to the state schools. The aims of these policies were to break up the large Romani communities, resettle the Roma among the general population as members of a new urban-artisan sub-proletariat, educate the children and hopefully assimilate the Roma into the general population. In most Communist countries, a new generation of Roma children appeared who were literate and while most followed their parents into the urbanized sub-proletariat, a fair number went on to higher education depending on the country. In the Soviet Union, the Czech Republic, Hungary and the former Yugoslavia, many Roma became doctors, engineers, teachers, nurses, members of the Communist Party and civic officials. Romani spokespeople and Romani leaders appeared, especially in the area of culture. The Communists, however, were opposed to Romani activism and self-determination at the political or ethnic level. Attempts to establish national Romani organizations and attempts to have the Romani language and culture taught in the school systems where there were large numbers of Romani children were frustrated by the Communist governments.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~rcctoronto/pages/romapages/FS7edu.html

princeowales
24-04-05, 06:28 AM
[QUOTE=ARTSCOTT]Attempts to establish national Romani organizations and attempts to have the Romani language and culture taught in the school systems where there were large numbers of Romani children were frustrated by the Communist governments.
[/QUOTE]

It seems like the Communists had a bit of trouble ever "getting it right". At the end of WWII, when the Russians "liberated" Czechoslovakia, they also "liberated" a number of Jews who had escaped the ovens and the firing squads of the Nazis. Soon after the Communists actually took power in Czechoslovakia, they re-arrested a large number of the same Jews as "counter-revolutionaries" and a danger to the aims of the proletariat.

HipGecko
24-04-05, 09:19 PM
Ever watch Death Wish 3?

When Bronson realizes the neighborhood he moved into is infested with thieves, he buys a junker car as bait and when he catches them in the act, he pulls out his hand-help cannon and blasts them away.

http://www.dvdmaniacs.net/Reviews/A-D/death_wish_3.html

princeowales
24-04-05, 10:15 PM
[QUOTE=HipGecko]Ever watch Death Wish 3?

When Bronson realizes the neighborhood he moved into is infested with thieves, he buys a junker car as bait and when he catches them in the act, he pulls out his hand-help cannon and blasts them away.

http://www.dvdmaniacs.net/Reviews/A-D/death_wish_3.html[/QUOTE]

And your point would be...?

t\/\/4tf4(3
24-04-05, 10:59 PM
[QUOTE=HipGecko]Ever watch Death Wish 3?

When Bronson realizes the neighborhood he moved into is infested with thieves, he buys a junker car as bait and when he catches them in the act, he pulls out his hand-help cannon and blasts them away.

http://www.dvdmaniacs.net/Reviews/A-D/death_wish_3.html[/QUOTE]

Hey HipGecko, ever see Escape from New York?

[size=2]A terrorist crashes the presidents plane into a building in New York. The president escapes the crash but New York has become a massive jail for hardcore prisoners , who want to cook and eat him.

http://imdb.com/title/tt0082340/
[/size]

ARTSCOTT
25-04-05, 04:36 AM
I see one that cannot pass the mental evaluation for owning a hand cannon in the CR. :)

princeowales
25-04-05, 04:51 AM
[QUOTE=ARTSCOTT]I see one that cannot pass the mental evaluation for owning a hand cannon in the CR. :)[/QUOTE]

There's a mental evaluation for owning a hand-cannon in the CR? How innovative! We don't have mental evalutions in the US for owning even a full-size cannon (2nd Amendment and all that, you know) :)

ARTSCOTT
25-04-05, 05:06 AM
I know...I was lookin into bringing my shotgun and blk powder rifle to hunt with there but after visiting a gunshop I decided to sell my stuff here and purchase new there...the blk powder isn't legal to hunt with there anyway....We may not have the mental evaluation but the waiting period helps as does the background czech....I was refused a h-gun because of an unpaid parking ticket....got it paid and bought the gun.
Also the nice Czech guns sell for less than they do here.
Dobry nocs.

t\/\/4tf4(3
25-04-05, 05:22 AM
[QUOTE=ARTSCOTT]I see one that cannot pass the mental evaluation for owning a hand cannon in the CR. :)[/QUOTE]

http://www.sledgehammeronline.com/color/sle2.jpg

Trust me, I know what I'm doing!

BTW they banned hand cannons where I'm from. The best mental evaluation you'll get in the pub "is this idiot really going to pay so much?", or from the police "I bet this bloke will wish "bubba's" dick is as small as his"

ARTSCOTT
25-04-05, 05:29 AM
[QUOTE=t\/\/4tf4(3]http://www.sledgehammeronline.com/color/sle2.jpg

Trust me, I know what I'm doing!

BTW they banned hand cannons where I'm from[/QUOTE]

Where are you from and did you think it "U" I was refering toooo. :) It wasn't.

t\/\/4tf4(3
25-04-05, 05:47 AM
[QUOTE=ARTSCOTT]Where are you from and did you think it "U" I was refering toooo. :) It wasn't.[/QUOTE]

I'm from the UK and no I wasn't sure :). U seriously a black power guy? I saw them being used a few times couldn't beleive the amount of smoke they create.

ARTSCOTT
25-04-05, 07:25 AM
[QUOTE=t\/\/4tf4(3]I'm from the UK and no I wasn't sure :). U seriously a black power guy? I saw them being used a few times couldn't beleive the amount of smoke they create.[/QUOTE]
Yes I am ...also shoot archery....hunt deer with bothe blk powder and bow and arrow...My blk powder is a .50 caliber and is very accurate out to 200 yards with open sights or telescope and yes they do smoke and smell..I use a conical bullet and the more modern powder that is a little cleaner to shoot. You must practice a lot because you only get one shoot and then the deer is either dead or gone.
With compound bow I am accurate to about 50 yards...I have been using a bow that had an 80 pound pull but always lost my arrows from shooting clear through our whitetailed deer...I bought it to hopefully get to hunk elk but was never lucky enough to win elk tag lottery...so now I use a 60 pound bow still good to 50 yards.
Shotgun is a 12 gauge used mostly for phaesants, quail, lessar praire chicken, rabbits (cotton tail and black eared jack rabbits)...have been know to pepper a person's a** also if caught stealing fom me and they we running away..after about 20 yds they only sting real bad especially if using a shell loaded with rock salt.
I was a little disappointed to learn that there was NO hunting with black powder or bow and arrow..but maybe that will change in the future.

Citygirl
28-04-05, 02:11 PM
Speaking of gypsies on this thread you may be interested in reading this article from my hometown Ostrava:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/27/education/27gypsy.html?

Citygirl
28-04-05, 03:38 PM
I think you can register free easily. I had no problems accessing it.

anh1965
28-04-05, 06:45 PM
Oh my, the self fulfilling prophecies of doom (and all that).
If I come over and buy a half decent motorbike,
a) is it safe to ride on the streets
b) is it safe to leave overnight on the streets
c) are there secure places to store such items overnight?
I'm only thinking a little 500 or 600 CRB or similar, but opinions much appreciated.

Andy

Dean Court
28-04-05, 06:49 PM
[QUOTE=anh1965]Oh my, the self fulfilling prophecies of doom (and all that).
If I come over and buy a half decent motorbike,
a) is it safe to ride on the streets
b) is it safe to leave overnight on the streets
c) are there secure places to store such items overnight?
I'm only thinking a little 500 or 600 CRB or similar, but opinions much appreciated.

Andy[/QUOTE]

I'll answer b) for you. NO!

D.C.

HipGecko
29-04-05, 01:29 AM
[QUOTE=t\/\/4tf4(3]Hey HipGecko, ever see Escape from New York?

[size=2]A terrorist crashes the presidents plane into a building in New York. The president escapes the crash but New York has become a massive jail for hardcore prisoners , who want to cook and eat him.

http://imdb.com/title/tt0082340/
[/size][/QUOTE]

it's funny that you'd reference a movie with 2 gypsies in it... i guess that's how it relates to this thread. i'll try and watch it. :D

t\/\/4tf4(3
29-04-05, 07:20 PM
[QUOTE=HipGecko]it's funny that you'd reference a movie with 2 gypsies in it... i guess that's how it relates to this thread. i'll try and watch it. :D[/QUOTE]

LOL didn't notice that :) there are actually 5!